I have heard experienced lawyers (albeit on the left wing MSNBC) say that any other defendant who did things like call for a potential witness to be executed would have had their bail revoked and would be awaiting trial in an orange jumpsuit. I'd be interested to know how widely this belief is amongst lawyers. If so we have a real case of a 'two tiered justice system'.
I don't think prosecuters will mind that much Trump making extravagently abusive comments about the District of Columbia. I expect they'd think this is polluting the jury pool in a way they actually like!
"The reality is that, absent a conviction, no judge is going to lock up the former president, who is running to return to office and who has a secret service detail and millions of angry followers. In some sense, every party to this transaction already knows that the court simply cannot treat Trump like any other defendant."
It's the "millions of angry followers" that are already threatening people like Engoron's court clerk every single day. Are their lives less important than Trump's campaign?
Not trying to shoot the messenger here, especially when you make a good point about Chutkan's evident lack of urgency in responding to the motions (maybe it means she's going to move up the trial start date). But goddamn your pessimism and I hope you're wrong. Will also add that he doesn't need to be locked up, home confinement with no internet would be suffice. Secret Service agents are federal law enforcement officers, they can keep him from leaving.
If the “millions of angry followers” are why the courts are taking it easy on Trump (and clearly they are) then the courts are saying “Yeah, we’ve decided to give in to the bullies” and Justice is lost.
There should be countless American voices calling out that American Presidents represent and protect ALL Americans. They do not call half the country enemies. They do not put targets on the backs of individual Americans for other Americans to harm. A true American President would be telling their supporters that violence against fellow Americans will not be tolerated. Period.
This would cause an uproar. Trump knows this and is taking advantage. But as well not taking the ultimate steps (not yet) would have repercussions, including more of a circus and surrogates talking for him. Trump is shooting himself every time he opens his mouth. There comes a tipping point though. I guess we have not reached it. But these cases cannot be delayed by contesting harsher actions by the judges.
Maybe not jail. But what about large, escalating fine? They should be paid only from his personal accounts, not any PAC, legal defense fund, or campaign fund. Only a matter of time then before trump will violate campaign finance rules. And it would take only ONE person (not gonna guess which party) who donates to any of these to create standing for a suit for fraud.
“And any other defendant who behaved the way Trump does would have long ago been gagged.
So why haven’t courts moved to restrain Trump?”
Because despite their many proclamations that the indictments of Trump show that “No one is above the law” and “The law applies to everyone equally” they don’t actually believe that and are *very much* treating Trump specially.
When I say Trump is not ordinary, I mean he has power do more than an ordinary citizen. He will be judged on the basis of the same ordinary law as you or I but commensurate to the magnitude based on his power. He will not be let off or forgiven because he was president. We know that. If I said the election was stolen,or if I defamed, it's not the same as Trump now and on "Truth Social". Even if I were on "Truth Social" saying the same thing it's not the same. the consequences are different because of the power differential. OTOH lying about the value of his property he will be treated as an ordinary tax cheat.
You mix together and confuse ordinary law and ordinary person. Trump is not ordinary not his crimes but ordinary law will take that into account. That is not a double standard. It would be a double standard if stealing the documents were treated the same as stealing a tube of toothpaste.
But Trump is being treated differently. I’m not in a position to do so, but if I took national secrets, denied I had them, refused to return them, I would not be given months to turn them in. After the docs were found at my house I would be in handcuffs, not allowed to go without charge for months.
Maybe i am not saying it well. The law is the law. The judgement is based on the law, not the person. The person in this case however because of the power he has is NOT ORDINARY ie can commit larger crimes than ordinary people can. The law doesn’t change. A person using his/ her power will be judged according to the SAME law not a different law, ordinary law, but according to the magnitude of the crime that power affords. The crime of trying to steal an election if you are Trump is not the same as if you are Giuliani. He could not cause the January 6th insurrection. Trump’s responsibility was greater. The law is the same, the judgement different. There is no special law for Trump. But he is not ordinary.
I get that because he was President, Trump was in a position to commit crimes that would not be available to most people. Your “ordinary person” isn’t going to have access to classified documents so would never have an opportunity to retain them.
But the discussion that stated this was how Trump is not being treated like “ordinary people” who do commit the same crimes as him. Violating terms of parole, for example.
Had an ordinary person said/posted anything like Trump repeatedly has, they’d be in jail.
That he’s not demonstrates that, while subject to the same laws, he’s not being treated the same for violating them.
Not for violating his parole, and not for those crimes an ordinary person might not be in a position to commit. Compare the deference given to Trump for messing with national secrets to what was very quickly and harshly done to Edward Sowden or Chelsea Manning.
No not for the rich and famous and a not a two tiered justice system either. That is not what I am saying. The rich and famous if they commit crimes, crimes which are not ordinary because ordinary people cannot, should not get anything other than "ordinary justice" justice commensurate with their crimes.
Trump is NOT being treated like an ordinary citizen. He is being allowed to say whatever he wants on his megaphone, with his howling messages reverberated by the pro and con media.He is really not an ordinary citizen and should be considered more dangerous because of the power he abused and he still has out of office. Every statement by Trump, evidence of his madness to the point where we wonder why he is not in a cage already, works up and keeps his base going at least while possibly/probably tainting the jury pool just enough.
This is not an ordinary criminal. Actually he's being treated carefully and with deference because of the threat of his power the desire to get convictions and ASAP. The longer these cases take, the more interference from Trump, the more he shows his madness to the rest of us, the more dangerous he is and will be.. a wounded animal. This is his campaign, warring against the government that is at war with him.. And he holds the law hostage to fears of shutting him up.
This is about what "ordinary" means. I believe Trump will be judged and sentenced like any other person would be. In the case of what he did as president and ex-president that has to be taken into account. If you or I were president/ex-president acting the way Trump has we would face the same laws. That's what I think is meant by "ordinary".
No I am not. Trump is an ordinary person but not ordinary in the use/ abuse of the power he held while he was in office and holds still with his substantial following. Ordinary people cannot do what he did and is doing.
He will be judged on the basis of his criminality in each case. In the case of rape and busines fraud as an ordinary citizen, but ALSO as a person that had this extraordinary power and influence to being us to January 6 insurrection. THAT was not ordinary. The punishment will not be ordinary either.
i.e. an ordinary person could not do what he did and is doing
I have heard experienced lawyers (albeit on the left wing MSNBC) say that any other defendant who did things like call for a potential witness to be executed would have had their bail revoked and would be awaiting trial in an orange jumpsuit. I'd be interested to know how widely this belief is amongst lawyers. If so we have a real case of a 'two tiered justice system'.
I don't think prosecuters will mind that much Trump making extravagently abusive comments about the District of Columbia. I expect they'd think this is polluting the jury pool in a way they actually like!
"The reality is that, absent a conviction, no judge is going to lock up the former president, who is running to return to office and who has a secret service detail and millions of angry followers. In some sense, every party to this transaction already knows that the court simply cannot treat Trump like any other defendant."
It's the "millions of angry followers" that are already threatening people like Engoron's court clerk every single day. Are their lives less important than Trump's campaign?
Not trying to shoot the messenger here, especially when you make a good point about Chutkan's evident lack of urgency in responding to the motions (maybe it means she's going to move up the trial start date). But goddamn your pessimism and I hope you're wrong. Will also add that he doesn't need to be locked up, home confinement with no internet would be suffice. Secret Service agents are federal law enforcement officers, they can keep him from leaving.
If the “millions of angry followers” are why the courts are taking it easy on Trump (and clearly they are) then the courts are saying “Yeah, we’ve decided to give in to the bullies” and Justice is lost.
There should be countless American voices calling out that American Presidents represent and protect ALL Americans. They do not call half the country enemies. They do not put targets on the backs of individual Americans for other Americans to harm. A true American President would be telling their supporters that violence against fellow Americans will not be tolerated. Period.
“You can’t shut him up.”
Sure you can. You can put him in jail for violating the terms of his release and thereby deny him access to microphones and the internet.
Just like would have been done long ago to any other defendant.
That none of the judges has taken that step just shows how hollow their repeated claims of “All treated equally under the law” have been.
This would cause an uproar. Trump knows this and is taking advantage. But as well not taking the ultimate steps (not yet) would have repercussions, including more of a circus and surrogates talking for him. Trump is shooting himself every time he opens his mouth. There comes a tipping point though. I guess we have not reached it. But these cases cannot be delayed by contesting harsher actions by the judges.
Maybe not jail. But what about large, escalating fine? They should be paid only from his personal accounts, not any PAC, legal defense fund, or campaign fund. Only a matter of time then before trump will violate campaign finance rules. And it would take only ONE person (not gonna guess which party) who donates to any of these to create standing for a suit for fraud.
“And any other defendant who behaved the way Trump does would have long ago been gagged.
So why haven’t courts moved to restrain Trump?”
Because despite their many proclamations that the indictments of Trump show that “No one is above the law” and “The law applies to everyone equally” they don’t actually believe that and are *very much* treating Trump specially.
Yes, they have to. He is not ordinary. And he is very dangerous. See my above.
No, they do not have to. People say that to take the responsibility off the court.
It is their job to make sure all are treated equally. Are you saying we should have different Justice systems for the rich and famous?
When I say Trump is not ordinary, I mean he has power do more than an ordinary citizen. He will be judged on the basis of the same ordinary law as you or I but commensurate to the magnitude based on his power. He will not be let off or forgiven because he was president. We know that. If I said the election was stolen,or if I defamed, it's not the same as Trump now and on "Truth Social". Even if I were on "Truth Social" saying the same thing it's not the same. the consequences are different because of the power differential. OTOH lying about the value of his property he will be treated as an ordinary tax cheat.
“He will be judged on the basis of the same ordinary law as you or I but commensurate to the magnitude based on his power.”
In that one sentence you say he’ll be judged the same as everyone else, and then that he won’t.
You would seem to be okay with that double standard. I disagree that we should accept that discrepancy.
You mix together and confuse ordinary law and ordinary person. Trump is not ordinary not his crimes but ordinary law will take that into account. That is not a double standard. It would be a double standard if stealing the documents were treated the same as stealing a tube of toothpaste.
But Trump is being treated differently. I’m not in a position to do so, but if I took national secrets, denied I had them, refused to return them, I would not be given months to turn them in. After the docs were found at my house I would be in handcuffs, not allowed to go without charge for months.
Maybe i am not saying it well. The law is the law. The judgement is based on the law, not the person. The person in this case however because of the power he has is NOT ORDINARY ie can commit larger crimes than ordinary people can. The law doesn’t change. A person using his/ her power will be judged according to the SAME law not a different law, ordinary law, but according to the magnitude of the crime that power affords. The crime of trying to steal an election if you are Trump is not the same as if you are Giuliani. He could not cause the January 6th insurrection. Trump’s responsibility was greater. The law is the same, the judgement different. There is no special law for Trump. But he is not ordinary.
I get that because he was President, Trump was in a position to commit crimes that would not be available to most people. Your “ordinary person” isn’t going to have access to classified documents so would never have an opportunity to retain them.
But the discussion that stated this was how Trump is not being treated like “ordinary people” who do commit the same crimes as him. Violating terms of parole, for example.
Had an ordinary person said/posted anything like Trump repeatedly has, they’d be in jail.
That he’s not demonstrates that, while subject to the same laws, he’s not being treated the same for violating them.
Not for violating his parole, and not for those crimes an ordinary person might not be in a position to commit. Compare the deference given to Trump for messing with national secrets to what was very quickly and harshly done to Edward Sowden or Chelsea Manning.
No not for the rich and famous and a not a two tiered justice system either. That is not what I am saying. The rich and famous if they commit crimes, crimes which are not ordinary because ordinary people cannot, should not get anything other than "ordinary justice" justice commensurate with their crimes.
Sanction his lawyers $100K everytime Trump "Truths" maliciously.
Trump is NOT being treated like an ordinary citizen. He is being allowed to say whatever he wants on his megaphone, with his howling messages reverberated by the pro and con media.He is really not an ordinary citizen and should be considered more dangerous because of the power he abused and he still has out of office. Every statement by Trump, evidence of his madness to the point where we wonder why he is not in a cage already, works up and keeps his base going at least while possibly/probably tainting the jury pool just enough.
This is not an ordinary criminal. Actually he's being treated carefully and with deference because of the threat of his power the desire to get convictions and ASAP. The longer these cases take, the more interference from Trump, the more he shows his madness to the rest of us, the more dangerous he is and will be.. a wounded animal. This is his campaign, warring against the government that is at war with him.. And he holds the law hostage to fears of shutting him up.
“every party to this transaction already knows that the court simply cannot treat Trump like any other defendant.”
I call bullshit. I’ve yet to hear anyone put forth a valid argument supporting that.
The court absolutely can. And should.
Read my above. Trump has power and the means that ordinary people do not. He has to be treated very carefully for the law to succeed.
You’re saying he should be treated differently than “ordinary people”. You’re advocating for a two tiered Justice system.
He has to be treated like everyone else for the law to succeed.
This is about what "ordinary" means. I believe Trump will be judged and sentenced like any other person would be. In the case of what he did as president and ex-president that has to be taken into account. If you or I were president/ex-president acting the way Trump has we would face the same laws. That's what I think is meant by "ordinary".
No I am not. Trump is an ordinary person but not ordinary in the use/ abuse of the power he held while he was in office and holds still with his substantial following. Ordinary people cannot do what he did and is doing.
He will be judged on the basis of his criminality in each case. In the case of rape and busines fraud as an ordinary citizen, but ALSO as a person that had this extraordinary power and influence to being us to January 6 insurrection. THAT was not ordinary. The punishment will not be ordinary either.
i.e. an ordinary person could not do what he did and is doing
"Be there! Will be wild." Trump's call to his MAGA base.
I would love to see him locked up and deprived of
his phone and megaphone 📣
until justice is done.
BUT, as things stand right now with a republican rabble
running the House, a
Project 2025 waiting in the
wings, billionaires financing
far right wing nuts and Project 2025, all it would
take would be Trump
sending another rallying
call out to his unhinged base.
This time, they'd all come
armed.