The tell isn’t the theology fight, it’s the revealed preference. They’re fine with religion in the public square as long as it functions as a loyalty oath. The moment it asserts independent moral authority, it becomes a problem. That’s not religious freedom. That’s a state church without the paperwork.
Vance converted, made Catholicism central to his identity, and apparently assumed the institution would return the favor. What he got was a 2,000-year-old organization with its own doctrine that doesn’t bend to electoral math. Lecturing the pope on just war theory isn’t arrogance, it’s what happens when faith was always instrumental.
Turns out 1.4 billion Catholics already have a leader. Awkward.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm an Australian) but wasn't lots of the founding fathers devout members of minority branches of Christianity at the time and this made them fervent believers in the separation of the church and state and that the state shouldn't muscle in and make any religous position dominant? It would not at all surprise me if Trump and his mob are as ignorant of |American political history/consitution that they to admire as they are of the Christianity they supposedly want to rule supreme.
Although I haven't been a member of the Catholic Church for 57 years, I seem to remember that the Church considers the Pope to be infallible when he speaks on matters of faith or morals "ex cathedra," in his capacity as the Church's "universal shepherd," and addresses his message to the entire world. Since this is fundamental Catholic dogma, Vance cannot remain a practicing Catholic while disagreeing with Leo XIV on faith or morals. He should therefore leave the Church by renouncing his baptismal vows. Of course, it might cost him some money in book royalties...
Could we please not use the phrase "Judeo-Christian". The Christian tradition is, in significant ways, incompatible with its Jewish origin. And, as you point out towards the end, Christians and Jews are NOT treated the same by this administration/regime. I fear that discrepancy will continue only increase over time.
That hasn't been my observation. Many exponents of all three religions -- I use that word intentionally, instead of "faith," which is intangible and impossible to write down -- differ in what they believe their god wants. Since it's not possible to divine what any particular deity has in mind, it's impossible to say who's got it right. Leaders who use religion to rally the masses, however, tend to assume that they're on speaking terms with the deity. I suspect they do most of the talking.
That was my point. They worship the god of Abraham and each one, including sub-sects of each one, interprets that same god differently. So who is right? They each think that they are!
A Vatican II Catholic, thanks to PN this am. Just 2 sobering nuances to suggest: 1] ever since the 1800s influx of Catholic immigrants to US, many [ most ? ] Protestant Christians in US do n-o-t view Catholics as 'true Christians'. We are 'other'. 2]. jdv is devout only to 'Opus Dei', still within the church. That group's history and presence are not about doctrine but about exclusion, control, power --- a catholic cult oligarchy. Another jdv career move.
Vance has converted to so many things he has no overall belief other than greed and fucking couched. Vance will never be anything after this admin. He’s despised, has no charisma and is just an overall piece of shit. He might have had a longer political career if he had stayed a senator for a while but couldn’t resist the pull and now finding out, he’s being pulled under by the wave.
Yes the Catholic Church (with a MUCH longer history than the US) has had it's dark times. The leaders are a reflection of the times and help shape the times. Just like the US and our leaders, like Trump is different from past presidents,though we have had a fair mix of past presidents to compare from. The mark of a good person is not whether they ever sinned, it is whether they ever admit to the sins and work to attone and become better. Trump never admits, and never gets better. The Catholic church has.
Trump has no idea about theology, and never did. The only 'religious' people who talk to him are Christian Nationalists so they can cover him in blessings to shield him from criticism, and tell their followers to follow Trump, in return for certain policies that help them keep and fleece their flock.
The 'Peace and Love' people are to him, fools. the 'Service oriented people' are suckers. Trump never got ANY of it, except for a vague understanding of hell, and Trump has admitted on camera that he is pretty sure he is going to hell.
The Christian nationalist religious leaders are the same hateful brand that Islam has. Islam has a lot of peace and love, and service religious leaders too, they just don't make as much news, or start as many wars. There have always been Religious leaders who got into the business for the power and so led with hate, fear and intolerance. I am glad our current pope is a good man, willing to step forward in time of need.
Sadly, there is not universal backlash to these antics. Sarah Longwell's focus group with Catholic Trump voters suggests that if criticism is to be assigned, it is against the Pope for daring to question their cult leader. This sickness is broad and deep. Common sense - and even religious devotion - play no role.
I was at Notre Dame as the Viet Nam War ramped up. I spent many hours in discussions of Just War theory organized and led by theology professors, and by aspiring priests from Moreau Seminary. We went far deeper into the weeds than the broad-brush description in this post.
Until this stupid crap from Vance, I had not seen public discussion of Just War theory or fo teh morality of any of Trump's actions. The only objections are to legality, as if that could replace our personal sense of right and wrong. No intellectually honest person would argue that this is a Just War, or that the killings in the oceans or the killings in Venezuela or Nigeria are Just or moral.
What hypocrites these pseudo-Christians be. I highly recommend the book Money, Lies, and God to see how billionaires fund conventions for pastors and instruct them how to spin Christianity to their parishioners to be to the benefit of the oligarchs. The prosperity gospel is distinctly un-Christian, but hey, none of that is political at all. /s It is all a scam to trick people into voting against their own interests and it works!
Season 5 of “The Boys” was written a couple of years ago and yet it is frighteningly prescient. This week’s episode had Homelander’s insane epiphany that he was supposed to be the next Jesus. Just…wow.
The tell isn’t the theology fight, it’s the revealed preference. They’re fine with religion in the public square as long as it functions as a loyalty oath. The moment it asserts independent moral authority, it becomes a problem. That’s not religious freedom. That’s a state church without the paperwork.
Vance converted, made Catholicism central to his identity, and apparently assumed the institution would return the favor. What he got was a 2,000-year-old organization with its own doctrine that doesn’t bend to electoral math. Lecturing the pope on just war theory isn’t arrogance, it’s what happens when faith was always instrumental.
Turns out 1.4 billion Catholics already have a leader. Awkward.
;)
Johan
The Catholicism Vance converted to seems still aghast at Vatican II.
It should be fairly clear by now that white evangelical is heavy on the white and lite on Christianity.
It's full of Christianity, it just takes all the worst parts. That doesn't make it any less Christian.
It also seems to be heavy on the Old Testament, which is odd because Christianity begat the new one.
It does if you wrap yourself in piety while avoiding the teachings of love and forgiveness.
That's no different than a whole shitload of Christians in the past.
Christianity isn't inherently good or benevolent. It is what Christians DO with it. And its history is a mixed bag at best.
Okay … agreed.
Just out of curiosity, but aren’t the Latino “illegal immigrants” predominantly Christian? But no, it’s their color that’s offensive … I forgot.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm an Australian) but wasn't lots of the founding fathers devout members of minority branches of Christianity at the time and this made them fervent believers in the separation of the church and state and that the state shouldn't muscle in and make any religous position dominant? It would not at all surprise me if Trump and his mob are as ignorant of |American political history/consitution that they to admire as they are of the Christianity they supposedly want to rule supreme.
Although I haven't been a member of the Catholic Church for 57 years, I seem to remember that the Church considers the Pope to be infallible when he speaks on matters of faith or morals "ex cathedra," in his capacity as the Church's "universal shepherd," and addresses his message to the entire world. Since this is fundamental Catholic dogma, Vance cannot remain a practicing Catholic while disagreeing with Leo XIV on faith or morals. He should therefore leave the Church by renouncing his baptismal vows. Of course, it might cost him some money in book royalties...
Could we please not use the phrase "Judeo-Christian". The Christian tradition is, in significant ways, incompatible with its Jewish origin. And, as you point out towards the end, Christians and Jews are NOT treated the same by this administration/regime. I fear that discrepancy will continue only increase over time.
Agreed. The only Israel fit for the CNats … is one barren of Jew or Muslim.
If they are going to do that, why leave out the Muslims? After all, all three faiths worship the same God.
That hasn't been my observation. Many exponents of all three religions -- I use that word intentionally, instead of "faith," which is intangible and impossible to write down -- differ in what they believe their god wants. Since it's not possible to divine what any particular deity has in mind, it's impossible to say who's got it right. Leaders who use religion to rally the masses, however, tend to assume that they're on speaking terms with the deity. I suspect they do most of the talking.
That was my point. They worship the god of Abraham and each one, including sub-sects of each one, interprets that same god differently. So who is right? They each think that they are!
A Vatican II Catholic, thanks to PN this am. Just 2 sobering nuances to suggest: 1] ever since the 1800s influx of Catholic immigrants to US, many [ most ? ] Protestant Christians in US do n-o-t view Catholics as 'true Christians'. We are 'other'. 2]. jdv is devout only to 'Opus Dei', still within the church. That group's history and presence are not about doctrine but about exclusion, control, power --- a catholic cult oligarchy. Another jdv career move.
Vance has converted to so many things he has no overall belief other than greed and fucking couched. Vance will never be anything after this admin. He’s despised, has no charisma and is just an overall piece of shit. He might have had a longer political career if he had stayed a senator for a while but couldn’t resist the pull and now finding out, he’s being pulled under by the wave.
He is Peter Thiel's puppet.
Yes the Catholic Church (with a MUCH longer history than the US) has had it's dark times. The leaders are a reflection of the times and help shape the times. Just like the US and our leaders, like Trump is different from past presidents,though we have had a fair mix of past presidents to compare from. The mark of a good person is not whether they ever sinned, it is whether they ever admit to the sins and work to attone and become better. Trump never admits, and never gets better. The Catholic church has.
Trump has no idea about theology, and never did. The only 'religious' people who talk to him are Christian Nationalists so they can cover him in blessings to shield him from criticism, and tell their followers to follow Trump, in return for certain policies that help them keep and fleece their flock.
The 'Peace and Love' people are to him, fools. the 'Service oriented people' are suckers. Trump never got ANY of it, except for a vague understanding of hell, and Trump has admitted on camera that he is pretty sure he is going to hell.
The Christian nationalist religious leaders are the same hateful brand that Islam has. Islam has a lot of peace and love, and service religious leaders too, they just don't make as much news, or start as many wars. There have always been Religious leaders who got into the business for the power and so led with hate, fear and intolerance. I am glad our current pope is a good man, willing to step forward in time of need.
Those who were attacking Muslims & Sikhs should have known he would come after Catholics. He doesn't care about anyone but himself.
Sadly, there is not universal backlash to these antics. Sarah Longwell's focus group with Catholic Trump voters suggests that if criticism is to be assigned, it is against the Pope for daring to question their cult leader. This sickness is broad and deep. Common sense - and even religious devotion - play no role.
I was at Notre Dame as the Viet Nam War ramped up. I spent many hours in discussions of Just War theory organized and led by theology professors, and by aspiring priests from Moreau Seminary. We went far deeper into the weeds than the broad-brush description in this post.
Until this stupid crap from Vance, I had not seen public discussion of Just War theory or fo teh morality of any of Trump's actions. The only objections are to legality, as if that could replace our personal sense of right and wrong. No intellectually honest person would argue that this is a Just War, or that the killings in the oceans or the killings in Venezuela or Nigeria are Just or moral.
What hypocrites these pseudo-Christians be. I highly recommend the book Money, Lies, and God to see how billionaires fund conventions for pastors and instruct them how to spin Christianity to their parishioners to be to the benefit of the oligarchs. The prosperity gospel is distinctly un-Christian, but hey, none of that is political at all. /s It is all a scam to trick people into voting against their own interests and it works!
Religion is whatever is useful to them to ensure compliance. Once religion clearly disputes them, it comes under attack.
Season 5 of “The Boys” was written a couple of years ago and yet it is frighteningly prescient. This week’s episode had Homelander’s insane epiphany that he was supposed to be the next Jesus. Just…wow.
Beware of any “religion” that preaches any form of salvation, but especially those that speak of apocalypse end times nonsense.