An expert view on Trump's Hitlerian rhetoric
Steven Levitsky, author of "How Democracies Die," on comparisons between today’s US and Germany in the 1930s.
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As we recently unpacked in Public Notice, it’s undeniable that Donald Trump has lately been leaning into Nazi-style rhetoric — especially with his comments about immigrants “poisoning the blood of our country” and his political foes being “vermin.”
It’s troubling stuff to be sure, but the Trump-Hitler comparisons can still seem a bit much. Hitler, after all, was responsible for the murder of millions of people. Trump did a lot of harm his first term and probably would be even worse the second time around, but it doesn’t feel totally appropriate to mention him in the same breath, even if both their political movements stem from racist, anti-democratic ideologies.
To get expert insight into key similarities and differences between Trump and Hitler, Public Notice contributor Thor Benson connected with Steven Levitsky, professor of political science at Harvard and co-author of the acclaimed 2018 book “How Democracies Die,” which focused on Trump’s presidency and what Americans can learn from the rise of authoritarian leaders in other countries.
Levitsky told us that while he thinks Trump-Hitler comparisons are generally exaggerated, there are some important parallels between MAGA and Nazism. He said the normalization of Trump’s rhetoric is taking the country down a dark path.
“What concerns me most when I hear Trump’s use of terms like ‘vermin’ and ‘poisoning the blood of the country’ is the lack of reaction to it,” Levitsky said. “The fact that both voters and the establishment — most importantly Republicans themselves — all just shrug. That worries the hell out of me.”
“Sometimes I think Trump is like a kid testing to see how far he can go. Can he read directly out of Mein Kampf?”
A transcript of the conversation, lightly edited for length and clarity, follows.
Thor Benson
Are the comparisons between Trump’s rhetoric and Hitler’s appropriate?
Steven Levitsky
I’m not one of those who thinks that fascism or anything like it is around the corner in the United States, and so calling Trump a Hitler-like figure or calling his party a Nazi-like movement would be greatly exaggerated. But there are a couple things to worry about.
First of all, this discourse of dehumanizing certain groups in society is a necessary condition for repression — for authoritarianism. That’s not to say that Trump would engage in the kind of behavior that Hitler did or anything remotely like it, but it’s never a positive or healthy thing for a diverse society like the United States to have leaders using language dehumanizing opponents, particularly minorities or other vulnerable groups.
Trump has always done that. It’s not new. In that sense, he’s done something many, many autocrats — including Hitler — have done very effectively and purposefully. He’s sounded like Hitler a fair number of times now, and I have no idea whether he’s purposefully using Hitler’s language. I tend to doubt it, but it’s now happened enough times that one has to at least ask the question: What the hell is he doing?
Thor Benson
Are we possibly too cautious about making these kinds of comparisons?
Steven Levitsky
In recent years — and I think this is a consequence of social media — we tend to use exaggerated comparisons and exaggerated terms to describe our rivals. So if you’re on the right, everyone on the left is a communist. If you’re on the left, everyone on the right is a fascist.
It’s gotten to a point where not only is it absurd, but it’s really debilitating to any kind of public debate. We should be really careful. Exaggeration destroys credibility. It limits our ability to have any kind of conversation or debate. I think a lot of journalists are rightly cautious about that.
We have to be very specific and careful and measured in how we draw these comparisons, but at this point Trump has become sufficiently authoritarian and some of the Trumpist movement’s rhetoric has become sufficiently extreme and violent that it’s not inappropriate, in some contexts, to make comparisons to fascism. That’s not to say Trump is going to bring fascism to the United States, but there are some parallels, and I think we should make them.
Thor Benson
I wonder if being too cautious could enable terrible things to happen because we didn’t call it out before it was too late.
Steven Levitsky
My strategy over the years has been to be more specific. If certain figures are endorsing or promoting or condoning violence, say that. If they are anti-democratic, say that. Name it specifically. In general, I’ve used the term “authoritarianism.” Trump is clearly an authoritarian figure, and I think his party increasingly has also abandoned democracy, but that strangely doesn’t seem to move a lot of people.
What concerns me most when I hear Trump’s use of terms like “vermin” and “poisoning the blood of the country” is the lack of reaction to it. The fact that both voters and the establishment — most importantly Republicans themselves — all just shrug. That worries the hell out of me. I’s become increasingly clear since the 2020 election that a lot of Americans and an overwhelming majority of Republicans will tolerate a lot more than we thought five, 10, or 15 years ago.
The red line for this society, and particularly the red line for Republican leaders, is way, way more advanced than most of us suspected. Sometimes I think Trump is like a kid testing to see how far he can go. Can he read directly out of Mein Kampf? I have no idea what drives Trump to say these things, but we keep accepting it. That’s what worries me.
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Thor Benson
Are there some similarities between Germany in the early 1930s and America today?
Steven Levitsky
There are more differences than similarities. Germany was coming out of a humiliating military defeat and extraordinary economic crisis. Germany, unlike the United States, had a very, very strong radical left. There was a perceived threat of Bolshevik revolution or something along those lines. Europe was intensely polarized.
Although the United States feels polarized, nobody’s threatening to nationalize the means of production. We are very armed, which scares me, but Germany was armed in a different way. Almost all of the major political parties had armed militias in the 1920s and early 1930s. There was already a paramilitary presence in Germany that was very frightening.
Another difference is Germany was a real democracy coming out of the 1920s, but it was a new, still relatively fragile one. German institutions were nowhere near as strong. There was a much larger and more politically potent left, which helped lead to this failed alliance of the middle class and the private sector and the Nazis. It led to a good chunk of the private sector and the middle class getting in bed with the Nazis out of fear of the left. You see a little bit of that here, but it’s nothing like Germany at that time.
Thor Benson
How does Trump’s use of Nazi-style rhetoric affect society more broadly?
Steven Levitsky
Dehumanizing rhetoric, to the extent it’s widely diffused and accepted, makes it easier to oppress the targets of that rhetoric. When human beings are not viewed as equals — whether they are Palestinians living in Gaza or the African slaves in the US South or African Americans living in the early 20th century United States or immigrants — if they’re viewed as animals or vermin or as an element that’s poisoning the bloodstream, that makes it easier for people to sign off on abuse and mistreatment and violence.
You don’t have to be an extremist or an authoritarian to be anti-immigrant. There are anti-immigrant groups across Europe, across the world. You don’t have to be violent or authoritarian to be anti-immigrant, but when you begin to sell that message with a dehumanizing element it increases the likelihood that individuals will attack them or politicians will pass laws that threaten their rights and will be accepted by mainstream groups in society. That’s the risk.
Thor Benson
Is there a good way to counter this and show people this kind of rhetoric is not acceptable?
Steven Levitsky
The best way to counter all of this stuff — and it increasingly seems like a pipe dream — is for elites on Trump’s side to use their voices to counter him. The public is much more prone to accept or internalize this kind of violent or authoritarian discourse if there’s nobody out there contesting it. Obviously Democratic or progressive elites need to contest it, and President Biden did, which was a good thing.
But it’s much more credible if right-wing figures do it. Most Trump supporters don’t give a hoot if Joe Biden doesn’t like what Trump says. If religious leaders say, “This is not compatible with Christianity,” if business leaders say, “We need immigrants and need to treat them like human beings,” if Republican politicians say “This is a step too far,” if people on Fox News or anyone Trump supporters at least seriously raises their voice, it makes a difference. If nobody raises a voice, then Trump’s got a monopoly on the discourse, and it will inevitably sink in, which it has.
That’s it for today
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Let's call it like it is please and stop sugar-coating the message. The Trump-Russia connection is a terrifying reality. The shadow cast by Putin over the landscape of American democracy and American lives, and his influence and control over Trump grows larger and darker by the moment. The book called From Democracy to Democrazy reveals, in detail, Putin's carefully hidden plan to the American public - the facts, the evidence, and the proof.
The Trump followers - a unique modern phenomenon - have been unknowingly engaged in coercive control techniques (aka brainwashing) used daily by Donald Trump. Mass mind manipulations began in totalitarian countries about 100 years ago. It was/is used extensively in China, and during WWII days in Italy, Germany, Austria, and so on. Lo and behold we find the EXACT same methodologies used in the United States. It is defined as "telling lies over and over until it is perceived as the truth" (wikipedia) - like Trump's big lie about the election being stolen when Biden won by over 7 million votes. Once a person is convinced there may be little to no independent thought. If a lie contains hatred - which is used daily by Trump - it releases a chemical in the human brain to enact violence - what we saw on January 6th. If you doubt this works, only yesterday in Pennsylvania, a young man murdered his own father and beheaded him over an argument about Trump. Jim Jones was a cult leader who amassed a following of about 900 persons. He told them all to drink Koolaid laced with poison, and they followed his instructions. They all died. Hitler turned an entire peaceful nation info mass murderers and slaughtered over 6 million humans. It took WWII to stop Hitler.
I was at a book signing event at a Barnes and Noble in Tucson, AZ. A middle-aged woman came up to me and said "I think Putin is a great leader." I opened my mouth to respond, but was so shocked that nothing came out. These were the EXACT SAME WORDS (www.cnn.com) used by Trump one week prior and right after Putin invaded Ukraine.
BRAINWASHING WORKS AND HAS BEEN USED IN THE U.S. BY DONALD TRUMP. AND YES, HITLER USED THE EXACT SAME METHODOLOGIES. Putin, who was a Cold War-era spy, spent the majority of his spy years in East Germany. He acquired Hitler's methodologies and took them back to Russia, where he is now the foremost dangerous and ruthless dictator in the entire world. In 1997, a book was published in Russia called The Foundations of Geopolitics. Putin was assumed to be the ghost writer since this book explains his goals as the 2nd President of Russia. On top of his "wish list" is the destruction of the U.S. government and democracy - who he blames for the downfall of the USSR. He wants revenge and his number one tool is Donald Trump.
Russians use at least three tools to entrap a foreigner: flattery, money, and beautiful women. Trump was susceptible to all three. I know this because I lived and worked in communist and dictator-led countries for about 20 years. I personally went through the "wine and dine and flattery" process several times, was invited to join the KGB, but managed to avoid enlistment. Visit - www.democrazy2020.org
Trump visited Russia many, many times and began his relationship with Russians in 1987. Trump, in his gullible and ignorant ways, did not avoid entrapment. He was either caught and photographed with his pants down (Russian hotels where a foreigner stays has spy devices in the walls and ceilings), or swayed by money given to the Trump organization after U.S. banks refused to loan him funds (due to his four bankruptcies). In 2008, Trump Jr. announced at a NY conference that the Trump organization had received $100 million from Russian banks. (www.businessinsider.com) Russian banks, which are ALL controlled and managed by the KGB/FSB, do not loan money to a foreigner just to watch the interest grow on the balance. They give large sums of money for two reasons: (1) to launder black cash into another countries economy, and (2) to obligate a foreigner to work for Russia. So it appears that about ten years before Trump became the U.S. President, he was on the KGB payroll. Russian banks also gave $9.8 million to Marie LePen who is the French opposition presidential leader in an effort to overthrow the French government. (www.theguardian.com)
The Mueller Report failed to warn the American public about the Trump-Russia relationship. I believe this was because of the long-term friendship between Barr and Mueller, and the fact that Barr did not want to deal with a "treason" charge on his watch as the DA. The Jack Miller trial may not see the light of day before the election. Americans do not understand much outside of our four walls (borders). If the violent Trump followers do not wake up from their cult-like mindless behavior (which is doubtful) - they will aid Putin in his destruction of our country and hand over the keys to our democracy without even a fight. Putin is not our friend - as Trump would like the American public to believe - but our enemy.
I apologize for the length of this message, but it is important to connect the dots from Germany to Russia to the USA.
Elizabeth Graham
www.democrazy2020.org
Just a question for Steven Levitsky. Did Hitler start out saying lets put Jewish people in camps and exterminate them or did he start by otherizing and calling them vermin? He's definitely understating how fascist and inhumane the GOP and Trump is....stealing newborns and small children and LOSING them to "deter immigration" stating unequivocally that you will round up, deport and place undocumented PEOPLE in tent camps on day 1, putting up razor wire that slices up people, including children, to "deter migration" extolling what a shame it is you cant murder people crossing the border (Abbot) is pretty close to Nazism, the targets are just different. How easy will it be to say brown people are vermin and deserving of extermination when you've degraded them enough by putting them in squalid camps? Also this? Steven Levitsky "tend to use exaggerated comparisons and exaggerated terms to describe our rivals". So if you’re on the right, everyone on the left is a communist"-demonstrably not true, dominated by free market neo libs in the Democratic party. "If you’re on the left, everyone on the right is a fascist."Who is saying this? AND to be fair the MAJORITY of the GOP house voted against certifying the election results, the MAJORITY of the GOP is exaggerating the border "crises" and using dehumanizing language about immigrants, the MAJORITY is supporting trump, the MAJORITY has stripped me of the right to control my own body to the extent that I may die, become sterile or lose a major bodily function (this is happening to women NOW) ALL BUT 1 GOP Governor is OPENLY (via a letter of support) advocating for trashing our constitution and system of checks and balances with allusions to resorting to violence to "protect the border" SO please god dont bothesides this. Dems are not overreacting we are reacting.