Bill Kristol saying “Abolish ICE” is the tell. When the architect of the Iraq War thinks your paramilitary force has gone too far, you’ve built something worse than law enforcement…you’ve built a goon squad.
Argentina didn’t reform the ESMA detention center. They closed it and turned it into a museum. Because you don’t reform death squads, you dismantle them.
“Reform and retrain” assumes institutions willing to enforce constraints. Minneapolis proved otherwise. Body cams filmed everything. Regime still lied, defended the killers, blamed the victims. Training doesn’t fix that. Accountability does.
"Reform and retrain" presume that there was training and instruction in the first place. We've already seen that this isn't the case, that ICE hires every goon who applies, including Proud Boys and Patriot Front scumbags. Trump Jan 6th POS criminals also signed up. You can't train these people, they belong in prison.
100% agree. Massive amounts of taxpayer $$ financing daily brutality, not related to law enforcement. This is political repression. Waiting for mid-term elections? What mid-term elections-?? See Fulton County, GA.
Americans still think an election will fix things. That may have been true in the past, but Congresspersons really are afraid of the fascism overtaking America and of losing their damn jobs. We are in a crisis, and it will show us who is really cut out for the job of defending the Constitution and the American people, not to mention those folks who are "illegals" but have come here to work and live in peace. We need to remember how much money they contribute to the economy, if nothing else, but this country has begun to lose its humanity because of Trump, and this should be intolerable.
I believe in defunding the entire department also removing administrative leaders. Never since the start of ICE have we had rogue people running around the country out of control.
Why can all these criminals ( which I believe many are) run this country because of a few crack pots say it’s ok to harass! Defund and start over with well trained people. Many in this group presently are not law enforcement.
When I was a young teenager, I and the rest of the country saw on TV what the Jim Crow South looked like for Black people. It made a difference. What's happening in Minneapolis and Maine and elsewhere is making a difference. Even people who are gung-ho for "immigration enforcement" don't like what they're seeing.
Now, in the "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile" department, let's push not just for the abolition of ICE. Let's push to break the Department of Homeland Security back down to its component parts and give them other homes in the cabinet. It's a product of the post-9/11 panic that gave us the PATRIOT Act, Rudy Giuliani, and a second Cheney/Bush term, among other things.
And while we're at it, the slogan on DHS secretary Noem's podium the other day -- "ONE OF OURS, ALL OF YOURS" -- apparently can't be traced to the Nazis, but what exactly does it mean to Noem and her colleagues?
Exactly! When I was a little girl, Black men bagged groceries, worked in construction and mowed white people's lawns. My parents and everyone in my neighborhood in St. Petersburg, FL took their kids out of the school we were attending in 1964 because the Civil Rights Act desegregated the schools, and the parents enrolled us in another school that had no Black students.
There are still a lot of people who want to keep their kids away from anyone who isn't a white Christian, which explains why Trump has gotten away with this thuggery for so long.
I wonder just what they're so afraid of. Is their faith so weak that they're sure their kids will easily be lured away from it? Same issue, slightly different angle: Have you by chance read Heather McGhee's THE SUM OF US: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together? She talks about how after the Civil Rights Act passed, municipalities in the South and elsewhere drained their public swimming pools to prevent Black people from swimming in them. Talk about "cut off your nose to spite your face"!
Trump's regime is doing the same "cut off your nose to spite your face" thing - with immigrants. Localities that rely on immigrant labor to sustain their economies have suffered. And Trump's message saying he will not be attending the super bowl because an immigrant will be singing in Spanish at halftime is an attention-getting show of blatant racism, a clear message supporting the brutality he has fomented against Hispanics that has nothing to do will illegal immigration.
I don't remember swimming pools being drained in Florida, but when I was 9 my family returned to NY, and I was shocked to see Black children attending my school. When I was 6 and in Florida I heard the word "segregated" for the first time. Back then, I didn't know what it meant.
I’m guessing that Trump’s message was dictated, or at least inspired, by Stephen Miller et al. Trump is demonstrably racist, but he’ll also say whatever will please whoever’s whispering in his ear at the moment. Look at how many Hispanics, especially Hispanic men, were lulled into supporting him in 2024 because they heard what they wanted to hear and didn’t hear what they didn’t.
Everyone, especially young white men, who voted for Trump heard what they wanted to hear. Trump plays on people's prejudices, as well as their worries and what angers them. He said to them, "I am your retribution." The MAGA GOP worked for four years to damage Biden's reputation and convince the public that he was a bad president. No wonder the Democrats lost. The devil is a liar, as they say. I just had a comment from a note I posted a few days ago, the commenter said he didn't like ICE but still thinks Trump is "the greatest president America has ever had."
Recently iCE knocked a man to the ground then sprayed a yellow chemical directly into his open mouth and eyes causing agonizing, sustained pain. This horrific act of torture shows there’s no reforming an agency that allows and even celebrates overt violence including the two gruesome murders in Minneapolis. ABOLISH ICE NOW!
How do we know, or why does everyone seem to assume, that people posing as ICE agents are Americans? The size of the ICE force in Minneapolis is troubling in this regard. Move 3,000 masked and unidentified people into a city, put them in ad hoc cosplay "uniforms" which could be purchased from the aisles of a Walmart store, slap on a generic label reading "POLICE," equip them with highly lethal weaponry and tactical vehicles, give them substantial logistical support, and you have effectively imposed a small army on the populace, all without even identifying the so-called federal agents of law enforcement as Americans. They could be from another country. They could be felons drawn from our nation's enormous prison population. They could be part of a black ops-type organization claiming sovereignty and doing the Trump Administration's bidding for a mercenary price being paid by American tax dollars.
Why does DHS need more money? They are already operating with more money than ever, including pillaging FEMA funds in the process. I thought DHS had been funded till 2029. Is it those preposterous $50K sign-on bonuses? And, since when is the U.S. in so much "criminal" chaos that this is all needed?
Much as I’d like to see ICE in its present form destroyed, fighting about slogans over reform vs abolition seems a waste of time. These are questions for a new government and we’re stuck with the present one at the moment. There’s no way bar a violent revolution that ICE is going to be dis-established in this term of government.
Fights amongst those who agree that ICE at present is unacceptable are a waste of time and a benefit for the Republicans. Anger directed at ICE opponents who don’t think shouting “defund ICE” is a good idea are far better directed at the government – especially Trump – who set this monster up and turned it loose. If the left can make enough of this stink to attach to the Republicans they might lose the Senate as well as the House and that would be a significant achievement. Fighting over whether ICE should be reformed or disbanded some years hence is a distraction from this task
Well I think a uniform with no masks, mobile cameras and a lot less weaponary would be a good start but in all truth we need something in the "root and branch' change department.
"Abolish ICE" is politically unhelpful. That argument rests on subtleties that escape voters. We don't yell "Abolish the DOJ" or "Abolish the FBI" even though those entities have been thoroughly corrupted and weaponized.
Democratic leaders who don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot once again say, thoughtfully, that we want a border, and we want deportable violent criminals deported, and we need ethical, accountable, law-abiding agencies to perform that work.
Sadly too many Dems will listen to the ball less, centrist cocksucker since they themselves are ball less. Hell, 2 of them today voted with the fascists in the Senate. What has to happen is Rethug and Dem parties destroyed so we can have multi-parties. Two party system is a failure.
Bill Kristol saying “Abolish ICE” is the tell. When the architect of the Iraq War thinks your paramilitary force has gone too far, you’ve built something worse than law enforcement…you’ve built a goon squad.
Argentina didn’t reform the ESMA detention center. They closed it and turned it into a museum. Because you don’t reform death squads, you dismantle them.
“Reform and retrain” assumes institutions willing to enforce constraints. Minneapolis proved otherwise. Body cams filmed everything. Regime still lied, defended the killers, blamed the victims. Training doesn’t fix that. Accountability does.
Abolish ICE isn’t radical. It’s pattern recognition.
—Johan
Let’s all keep it real
"Reform and retrain" presume that there was training and instruction in the first place. We've already seen that this isn't the case, that ICE hires every goon who applies, including Proud Boys and Patriot Front scumbags. Trump Jan 6th POS criminals also signed up. You can't train these people, they belong in prison.
ICE are not law enforcement. What they are doing is not law enforcement. It’s pure thuggery. And it’s time for the Dems to start being honest.😡
They need to stop being cowards more worried about offending than doing their jobs.
100% agree. Massive amounts of taxpayer $$ financing daily brutality, not related to law enforcement. This is political repression. Waiting for mid-term elections? What mid-term elections-?? See Fulton County, GA.
Americans still think an election will fix things. That may have been true in the past, but Congresspersons really are afraid of the fascism overtaking America and of losing their damn jobs. We are in a crisis, and it will show us who is really cut out for the job of defending the Constitution and the American people, not to mention those folks who are "illegals" but have come here to work and live in peace. We need to remember how much money they contribute to the economy, if nothing else, but this country has begun to lose its humanity because of Trump, and this should be intolerable.
I believe in defunding the entire department also removing administrative leaders. Never since the start of ICE have we had rogue people running around the country out of control.
Why can all these criminals ( which I believe many are) run this country because of a few crack pots say it’s ok to harass! Defund and start over with well trained people. Many in this group presently are not law enforcement.
Apparently “the enemy” is anyone who stands up.
He looks like the Israel IDF murderers They are in our government too
Yes. Unfortunately, Biden was one of them. I still wonder if he understands now just how wrong he was.
When I was a young teenager, I and the rest of the country saw on TV what the Jim Crow South looked like for Black people. It made a difference. What's happening in Minneapolis and Maine and elsewhere is making a difference. Even people who are gung-ho for "immigration enforcement" don't like what they're seeing.
Now, in the "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile" department, let's push not just for the abolition of ICE. Let's push to break the Department of Homeland Security back down to its component parts and give them other homes in the cabinet. It's a product of the post-9/11 panic that gave us the PATRIOT Act, Rudy Giuliani, and a second Cheney/Bush term, among other things.
And while we're at it, the slogan on DHS secretary Noem's podium the other day -- "ONE OF OURS, ALL OF YOURS" -- apparently can't be traced to the Nazis, but what exactly does it mean to Noem and her colleagues?
Exactly! When I was a little girl, Black men bagged groceries, worked in construction and mowed white people's lawns. My parents and everyone in my neighborhood in St. Petersburg, FL took their kids out of the school we were attending in 1964 because the Civil Rights Act desegregated the schools, and the parents enrolled us in another school that had no Black students.
There are still a lot of people who want to keep their kids away from anyone who isn't a white Christian, which explains why Trump has gotten away with this thuggery for so long.
I wonder just what they're so afraid of. Is their faith so weak that they're sure their kids will easily be lured away from it? Same issue, slightly different angle: Have you by chance read Heather McGhee's THE SUM OF US: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together? She talks about how after the Civil Rights Act passed, municipalities in the South and elsewhere drained their public swimming pools to prevent Black people from swimming in them. Talk about "cut off your nose to spite your face"!
Trump's regime is doing the same "cut off your nose to spite your face" thing - with immigrants. Localities that rely on immigrant labor to sustain their economies have suffered. And Trump's message saying he will not be attending the super bowl because an immigrant will be singing in Spanish at halftime is an attention-getting show of blatant racism, a clear message supporting the brutality he has fomented against Hispanics that has nothing to do will illegal immigration.
I don't remember swimming pools being drained in Florida, but when I was 9 my family returned to NY, and I was shocked to see Black children attending my school. When I was 6 and in Florida I heard the word "segregated" for the first time. Back then, I didn't know what it meant.
I’m guessing that Trump’s message was dictated, or at least inspired, by Stephen Miller et al. Trump is demonstrably racist, but he’ll also say whatever will please whoever’s whispering in his ear at the moment. Look at how many Hispanics, especially Hispanic men, were lulled into supporting him in 2024 because they heard what they wanted to hear and didn’t hear what they didn’t.
Everyone, especially young white men, who voted for Trump heard what they wanted to hear. Trump plays on people's prejudices, as well as their worries and what angers them. He said to them, "I am your retribution." The MAGA GOP worked for four years to damage Biden's reputation and convince the public that he was a bad president. No wonder the Democrats lost. The devil is a liar, as they say. I just had a comment from a note I posted a few days ago, the commenter said he didn't like ICE but still thinks Trump is "the greatest president America has ever had."
Recently iCE knocked a man to the ground then sprayed a yellow chemical directly into his open mouth and eyes causing agonizing, sustained pain. This horrific act of torture shows there’s no reforming an agency that allows and even celebrates overt violence including the two gruesome murders in Minneapolis. ABOLISH ICE NOW!
“Droogs”—excellent reference!
How do we know, or why does everyone seem to assume, that people posing as ICE agents are Americans? The size of the ICE force in Minneapolis is troubling in this regard. Move 3,000 masked and unidentified people into a city, put them in ad hoc cosplay "uniforms" which could be purchased from the aisles of a Walmart store, slap on a generic label reading "POLICE," equip them with highly lethal weaponry and tactical vehicles, give them substantial logistical support, and you have effectively imposed a small army on the populace, all without even identifying the so-called federal agents of law enforcement as Americans. They could be from another country. They could be felons drawn from our nation's enormous prison population. They could be part of a black ops-type organization claiming sovereignty and doing the Trump Administration's bidding for a mercenary price being paid by American tax dollars.
Paranoia will destroy ya, George.
Why does DHS need more money? They are already operating with more money than ever, including pillaging FEMA funds in the process. I thought DHS had been funded till 2029. Is it those preposterous $50K sign-on bonuses? And, since when is the U.S. in so much "criminal" chaos that this is all needed?
Hearing the lack of strength and directness from the Democrats in Congress, I often think of the song “Harry Truman” by the group Chicago (1975).
The first stanza:
America needs you, Harry Truman
Harry, could you please come home?
Things are looking bad
I know you would be mad
To see what kind of men
Prevail upon the land you love
Second stanza:
America's wondering, "How we got here?"
Harry, all we get is lies
We're getting safer cars
Rocket ships to Mars
From men who'd sell us out
To get themselves a piece of power
[Bridge: Robert Lamm]
We'd love to hear you speak your mind
In plain and simple ways
Call a spade a spade
Just like you did back in the days
When you would play piano
Each morning walk a mile
Speak of what was going down
With honesty and style…
(More lyrics follow)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kynzW7b0790
Dialogue Pts I and II, Chicago
Much as I’d like to see ICE in its present form destroyed, fighting about slogans over reform vs abolition seems a waste of time. These are questions for a new government and we’re stuck with the present one at the moment. There’s no way bar a violent revolution that ICE is going to be dis-established in this term of government.
Fights amongst those who agree that ICE at present is unacceptable are a waste of time and a benefit for the Republicans. Anger directed at ICE opponents who don’t think shouting “defund ICE” is a good idea are far better directed at the government – especially Trump – who set this monster up and turned it loose. If the left can make enough of this stink to attach to the Republicans they might lose the Senate as well as the House and that would be a significant achievement. Fighting over whether ICE should be reformed or disbanded some years hence is a distraction from this task
Let’s just let them get prettier uniforms?
Well I think a uniform with no masks, mobile cameras and a lot less weaponary would be a good start but in all truth we need something in the "root and branch' change department.
And perhaps a little training—is that too much to ask?
With the Trump administration in overall control I'd say that's defintely too much to ask or at least hope for.
… or expect.
"Abolish ICE" is politically unhelpful. That argument rests on subtleties that escape voters. We don't yell "Abolish the DOJ" or "Abolish the FBI" even though those entities have been thoroughly corrupted and weaponized.
Radical top-to-bottom reform--not emotional outbursts.
Democratic leaders who don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot once again say, thoughtfully, that we want a border, and we want deportable violent criminals deported, and we need ethical, accountable, law-abiding agencies to perform that work.
Sadly too many Dems will listen to the ball less, centrist cocksucker since they themselves are ball less. Hell, 2 of them today voted with the fascists in the Senate. What has to happen is Rethug and Dem parties destroyed so we can have multi-parties. Two party system is a failure.
Democrats never fail to fail. Don't count on them to do anything significant but to clutch their pearls and hide under their desks.
Every time you mention that x# of Dems voted for the bill, note that they may have been afraid of the consequences of a government shutdown.